Plato

Cami

I really, really liked the first ones we read—Apology and Crito. It helped to know from Aristophanes that lawyers were big in the land. It all makes sense—lawyers, politicians, philosophers, sophists—they are all about who can use words the best. And who can trick the public or their opponent into believing (or at least saying) what they believe. But Socrates seemed so different in these first two. I loved when he defended himself against sophistry by stating that the truth needs not embellishment. There IS a true correct opinion. He was a simple speaker, in some sense, and seemed to want to get to the bare truth of the matter at hand. I also loved how he seemed deeply religious, stating that he would obey God rather than man, although he followed the laws of the land (as we see by allowing himself to be killed rather than rescued—if we refuse the laws of the land, all is lost). I wrote at the end of Apology: He sounds like a prophet sentenced to death for preaching repentance. Truth will prevail. Death is not punishment. The Spirit cannot be denied.

Janice

How amazing that Plato (428-348 B.C.) started a school, the Academy, which continued for many centuries. And we still read and teach his ideas. As far as I could make out, I think Plato and his colleagues were trying to figure out things like what truth, virtue, wisdom, common sense, and goodness are, what civilized society should allow, what children should be taught, how to ensure a safe and good society. (Funny how our society doesn't seem to be so concerned with a lot of these things anymore.) They believed in God and gods, in other word, in a higher intelligence than mortal man which was responsible for and interested in their existence, and who they were somewhat accountable to. They also believed in the immortal soul being more valuable than the body, and in an afterlife. I have found it interesting to see what people thought before Christ came and answered a lot of their questions. And it's interesting that a lot of it sounds similar to some scriptures. These were the times, places, and people that were ripe for Christianity. They were searching, searching, searching, trying to figure out the best ways to think and feel and live and improve. They wanted to make sure and do good for the highest motives they could think of. They didn't have all the light, but they were doing the best with what they had.

Julia

Socrates' goal was to teach young men to think clearly and act reasonably. he was accused of introducing new gods and currupting the youth. He is known for his adherence to his convictions and his fearlessness of consequences. The philosophy of his dialogues has remained for over 2000 years one of the greatest intellectual influences of the western world--amirable for literature as well as philosophy. He was more than 70 years old when he appeared in court. "I am that gadfly which God has given the state and all day long and in all places I am always fastening on you, arousing and persuading and re-provoking you." He said that the strong arm of that oppressive power did not frighten him into doing wrong (when he was a senator) "but I went quietly home." Was he referring to going to his Final Home? He said that he would never cease teaching philosophy about wisdom and truth and the greatest improvement of the soul.

Finishing Aristotle

Ok, so we've decided to split up Aristotle so as to get it done.

Julia will be reading Poetics.

Janice will be reading Ethics.

Cami will be reading Politics.

We are setting a deadline. Be done by the end of October. That is all.

Aristophanes

Cami

Well, well. I have just finished Aristophanes. Man, I thought the FIRST one (The Clouds) was full of all sorts of crude and surprising humor! Little did I know what would be in store for me by Lysistrata!

Speaking of translation in general. The notes in my edition were very informative. For example, when characters spoke with country bumpkin accents, the notes informed me that this was their modern way of explaining how the Athenians felt about the Spartans—that they were indeed country bumpkins. And some of the puns and jokes were a little too tidy, until the notes explained that they completely changed the lines in order to get the gist of the joke, rather than the literal translation. Because they so thoroughly modernized, it seemed almost TOO much. We were not Greek-ized in return, so we don’t exactly know how to take it.

And so I am done with Aristophanes, and who knows if I am better for it. I definitely learned some things.

Jan

I have just finished our three comedies by Aristophanes. Whew! That last one, "Lysistrata," was racy! I began to wonder if it was pornographic. But I decided it wasn’t because it wasn’t meant to incite lust (although I suppose it could and might have). But I think its main purpose was for fun, even given the licentious time period. It was just an acceptance of life and a funny exaggeration. Those men were sure silly. Hurray for the women. They were funny, too.

My favorite of the three was "Clouds." Hilarious. I loved how Aristophanes made fun of the sophists. It’s interesting that the first thing required for anyone to be taught at the "Think-shop" was to renounce the gods – another great example of how there is nothing new under the sun. People have always employed cunning words to slant and corrupt things, and to evade the consequences of debt and evildoing. O’J.’s lawyers must have studied this same "science of subtle speech . . . with its measures, words and rhythms!"

As for "Birds" . . . I got what it was about, but whoa, the Moby Dick of bird plays. Imagine the costumes! I guess it was pretty artistic and imaginative, supposedly his masterpiece. I think it showed how it doesn’t really matter what we worship if we don’t worship God. It ends up being a false idol.

Julia

Maybe it's because I am no longer a Saturday Night Live fan or a devotee of Letterman or Leno or even Mad Magazine. I guess I'm just an old fuddy-duddy when it comes to crass satire and the plethora of double meanings and puns that were so constantly evident in Lysistrata. All the double meanings were boringly predictable. When it comes to R-rated stand-up comedy and these plays, nothing much has really changed, has it? Perhaps the 3 plays we read were the precursors to bawdiness and the theatre of the absurd.

I guess I am taking the plays too literally, forgetting that they were created to make fun of the sophists. The Clouds is a caricature of Socrates and The Birds, a portrayal of a flawed utopia called Cloudcuckooland. These plays may have been hilarious in there day, but I didn't really get it. Call me humorless.

Sun Tzu: The Art of War

Cami

The Art of War was actually quite refreshing for me—not just because of the length, but because it was pretty easy to understand, or to ignore if I knew it would never really apply to me unless playing a serious game of laser tag. I actually found many insights into parenting, leading a group or a business team, and other basic social situations. How like war life really is.

[My husband, Jake, likes to play a war-based video game called Call of Duty.] As I would read along, I would find a strategy that Jake was consistently ignoring, resulting in his imminent death (they revive immediately in the gaming world). As I watched and read, I started to give him pointers, and told him he really ought to read this book if he was ever going to make it in this game. How very silly, and yet, fitting.

Anyway, my analysis is that this book was much more relatable and even “fun” to read than I expected it to be. I was expecting my pen to stay firmly planted behind my ear, and yet it was out constantly, underlining, making notes in margins. Who knew?

Janice

I read my Art of War edition in a day. I can see how war can be handled best, better, and not well at all, and how a knowledge of human nature is indispensable. I found myself thinking of the Iliad, Confucious, Herodotus, Thucydides, and war movies I’ve seen.

I like the emphasis on avoiding war altogether being the very best way. But if you have no other choice, it must be fought, with the least danger to life and limb, and with respect to the enemy.

Nothing done out of revenge, vanity, greed, or in a rush. Much of the wisdom can be applied to every day life. Loyalty to ideals above all! My favorite quote has to be:

If you are quiet and inconspicuous, others will not be able to figure you out. If you are accurate and orderly, others will not be able to disturb you.

Julia

The areas that I crossed over to from the subject of war were parenting, sports, tennis strategy, politics, living a life in general and business.

The use of numbers was interesting -- 5 thises, 9 thats. Now all the self-help authors use this method . . .

As pertaining to tennis, I underlined lots. One of my favorites, "Increase your enemy's fear of your ability. Prevent his forces from getting together and organizing."

A good note to sign off on would be, "People need an intelligent leader and a worthy commander." Let us hope we get one in this next election, by the grace of God.

May you continue to be brilliant generals.

Thucydides: The History of the Peloponnesian War

Cami

. . . My fellow warriors, it has been found that our small troops are no match for the Thucydian force, despite our allies in Logan and Pleasant Grove. Though our hearts are strong, and our minds willing, we are unable to defeat our enemies . . . . I know when it is time to retreat and make peace with our oppressors. Would it not be more wise, friends, to create a truce, leaving two books of the seven read, and the rest to be read later—perhaps when other allies in the more manageable lands of Sun Tzu and Plato have been formed? I then propose that we send emissaries to Utah to tell our allies to make peace when they can, that we may move on from these tumultuous waters and protect the alliances we have already made. I fear our abilities to conquer future foes depends on our not giving up, but being wise and retreating while retreat is possible. . . .

Hee hee. This is my clever way of giving up while still showing how much I’ve learned from the portions of Thucydides I actually read. Did it work? Let’s hope so. But reading Thucydides was akin to reading Isaiah chapters in the scriptures to me—in one ear, out the other with the occasional feeling of “whoa” attached to the content.

So I am letting myself finish off just two books and hope I got the general feeling of what Thucydides had to offer. The main thing, I’d say, is the difference between Herodotus and Thucydides. It has been helpful during the election debates, Mom’s return to school where they believe in “selective” history, and the general debate about our current war, to see that things have not changed much since the time Thucydides was doing his best to present the truth.

Janice

Greetings, Atheninans. The recent missive from Camillides persuaded me that we MUST move on. As Pericles said in his famous speech so responsibly and aptly recorded by Thucydides, "What I fear is not the amount we have to read, but our own sluggishness." (Actually, he said, "What I fear is not the enemy’s strategy, but our own mistakes." But the format of the statement seemed to fit.) Like the ancient historian’s, our self-assigned inquiry into the past is a great and important one. But we must not get bogged down in details. Because of the immenseness of our lifetime reading plan, we must do as Thucydides, that is, force ourselves to move from the particular to the universal, from each concrete and specific book to underlying patterns and generalities. And I agree with the Camillian proposal, that perhaps we have reaped what rewards we can from the present siege. Even the first two chapters contain wealth enough. From them we can glean important truths, that human nature is predictably flawed, that history repeats itself, and that humankind could learn from history if it only would. Everyone should read at least some Thucydides!

Julia

My book has been lost in one of the many battles of what seems like a bloody siege of at least 28 years. Anyway I only got through Book 2 and this without memory of victories or defeats, places or names which after a while all became a blur. I found I really didn't care much about the players and it was enough to know in the last analysis that Sparta was victorious over Athens, right? Looking at the map and finding the oft named places, I saw that all these skirmishes happened within a rather small section of the world. I guess it is to Thu's credit that he put all the data down in print, but I'm really not sure how it affects us.

So thank you, great Camillides, for waving the white flag of surrender during our labors in the Pelop. wars so that we might draw our inner-troops together to fight more current and personal wars.

Herodotus: The Histories

September 2007

CAMI

I was really quite surprised at how much I enjoyed reading the book. What an amazing interpretation! I really felt like Herodotus was just a guy telling us some interesting facts while throwing in his own opinion and judgment occasionally. It didn’t feel ancient or unreachable to me. Fabulous.

Cannibalism, prostitution, slavery, murder, greed, war, incest, slander, human sacrifice and desecration, ridiculous rituals and customs, feminism, political scandal, sexual deviance, self-fulfilling prophesy . . . what did these people NOT delve in? And yet there was honor, a general agreement of right and wrong, sophisticated government, community laws and customs, religion, fear of god, and Herodotus giving us his opinion about the morality and probability of it all. It’s amazing how much and really how little has changed in all these years.

JANICE

I really enjoyed this first known social history, learning about the B.C. world with all its barbarisms, weirdnesses, atrocities, and tyrannies, and also its honor, sacrifice, bravery, and love of freedom. I see how whole cultures have come to pass and when it comes to human nature there is nothing new under the sun (Ecclesiastes). EXCEPT one thing: Herodotus did not mention the terrible sexualization of children which we are seeing today. Histories of civilzations all have a lot in common, I suppose because the earth's resources and human nature are timeless. Like I just read in A Canticle for Leibowitz, if everything was destroyed and man started over, the same sort of things would be rediscovered, the same kind of wars fought, the same types of tyrants wrould rise to power, the same train of troubles would evolve. Everyone needs to read Herodotus. He was a wise man, wiser than many of our leaders today. His words help me understand the climate and tone of the times, and how Jesus coming caused such a huge spiritual upheaval.

JULIA

Yay, a few more pages and I'll be done with The Histories, a long and sometimes arduous battle, but full of familiar tales, characters, predicaments, and parallels in my own life as well as history that I have personally witnessed.

Now the tale is told and read. Thank you Herodotus. Thank you translator, Aubrey de Selincourt. The language was colorful and fun to read, H. was a great observer and story-teller, and philosopher. On page 595, "Many things make it plain to me that the hand of God is active in human affairs . . . giving every man greater courage for the coming battle and fiercer determination to risk his life for his country." Amen.

Euripides: Ten Plays

January -- March 2007

CAMI

My friend asked me the other day if I liked reading the Greek stuff, if it was any good. It was sort of a hard question to answer. It’s not my favorite reading material, and I’m not sure I’ll ever revisit it, but my answer was, “Well, I’m learning a lot, and it’s good to have a foundation for modern literature.” And that is true. There is so much in these little plays that contributes to Shakespeare, or modern plays, or even just classic stories and allusions in other literature, that it’s hard to say these are not worth reading.

[Here are some notes from the summaries of each play]: . . . you just never know what consequences your selfish actions will bring (Alcestis). She uses reason and emotion to get what she wants, which is basically for everyone to suffer as she does (Medea). Lives are destroyed for crimes not actually committed. Just our thoughts are enough to destroy us (Hippolytus). I always wonder what those spoils of war are thinking once they are handed over as slaves. It was interesting to see a woman's life (a slave's life) valued in a literary way during this time (Trojan Women). It all just seemed so futile and hypocritical to me (Electra). Don't fight agains the worst sides of yourself, just use them sparingly. Very interesting. It's something we haven't really seen quite this way in the Greeks yet (The Bacchants).

JANICE

I soon saw why Aristotle called Euripides "the most tragic of the poets." Because he portrayed damaged souls at their worst, not how people could or ought to be, we are forced to face the results of raw, unrestrained, and (supposed) irredeemable human nature. Of all the plays we read I liked Hippolytus the best, because it points out that way back in the 400s B.C. people had some very strict rules for sexual morality, even in thought. As the miserable Pheadra who is lusting after her stepson says, "My hands are clean. It is my soul that's fouled." But she has no way out of her sin (no sense of agency and no Savior) except death. I loved this quote: "What brashness has the human heart? How far will it push? Is there any limit to its brazen nerve?" It goes on to say how the gods will have to create a bigger earth to hold all such depraved individuals. I thought Euripides' supposed masterpiece, The Bacchae, was horrific. To me it simply showed how lawlessness leads to loss of all sense of civility and loyalty and results in disorder and bloody, pointless tragedy. How ripe the world was for Christianity!


JULIA

I finished Euripedes last week but have taken so long, I've forgotten the first 4 plays so will have to say I liked BACCHANTS and THE TROJAN WOMEN the most since I actually remember them.

I thought BACCHANTS was the most timely play. I swear this passage, "These were young mothers who had left their infants behind and still had their breasts swollen with milk," mirrored the Britney Spears of our day. The greusome Agave/Pentheus scene when A. doesn't realize she has murdered her own son, scattered pieces of him, mounts his head on the thrysus thinking it is a lion's head, showed to me the blindness and denial of wanton wickedness and drink. It destroys those closest to you while butchering yourself into little pieces.